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Intro: 0:00

Hello

Jason Anderson: 0:06

and welcome to the latest edition of the Anzen Approach. My name is Jason, director at Anzen, and today I’m joined by Anthony, CEO and founder of eNavi.

Anthony Morgan: 0:18

Yeah, I’m excited to be here.

Jason Anderson: 0:20

And as usual, I’m also joined by Brendan, founder of Anzen.

Brenden Rawson: 0:24

Thank you, Jason. Anthony, great to have you. We are still in Austin, Texas, but it feels like we’ve been hanging out all month with you. So we caught up in Shop Talk or in Vegas for Shop Talk. Then we all headed over to Arizona for a brand retreat in the desert, which was fabulous. That was amazing, yeah. And now we’re back here in Austin for Rachel Jacobs event. Too much barbecue. Too much barbecue. Lots of fun drinks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lots of spicy mugs. Actually, Arizona as well. But let’s dive in to all things CRO and CRO agency.

Jason Anderson: 1:08

Yeah, I’m keen. Maybe, Anthony, if you could take us through. We haven’t had a specialist agency like yours on the pod, obviously, other than ourselves hosting it every month, but we’re particularly interested in what you guys do in CRO because it is obviously such an important niche aspect of managing your brand. I was very fortunate in Arizona to get to watch you do a workshop and I was really impressed by how you were able to break down what Slack feels like, a kind of ethereal, maybe like touchy feely but like not necessarily hard to pin down the data behind it you did a really great job of breaking down like here’s how you can actually look at the analytics to diagnose these problems and then measure success so I’m keen for you to maybe just spend a little bit of time talking about you know how you view CRO and where you guys fit into that

Anthony Morgan: 2:00

yeah no definitely so at eNavi we call our like approach to CRO, human obsessed CRO. And the idea behind human obsessed is ultimately with conversion rate optimization, the intention is to influence a human to take an action. Like that’s at the core of what you’re trying to do. And so that action could be a purchase, could be, you know, multiple more items into their card, higher average order value could be subscription opt-ins. There’s a variety of different, you know, actions that you could be influencing.

Intro: 2:34

Yeah.

Anthony Morgan: 2:34

But it’s the process that helps you understand why does the human do it? Why do they not do it? And then how do we ultimately influence them to do more of what we’re trying to do? And so that’s at the core of our human-obsessed approach. And so it’s hard because conversion rate optimization oftentimes gets boxed into just influencing conversion rates or only focusing on conversion rates. But we never look at conversion rate, really. It’s ultimately kind of a vanity metric doesn’t tell you a whole lot. And so we like to go deeper than that and look at what we call the intersite funnel. And so that’s core to our approach. And so it’s the four key steps that lead to a conversion. And so when you’re looking at like kind of a traditional e-commerce purchase journey, landing to product view, product view to add to cart, add to cart to checkout, checkout to purchase. Those are like the four key metrics. And then within those, we’re kind of segmenting down. Device, landing page. Yeah. channel. You can look at new versus returning. You can look at country. There’s so many ways you can kind of get surgical and layered data points on top of data points to understand, okay, we’ve got, you know, 50% of our traffic is landing on the homepage coming from, you know, let’s say organic search. And so that can give you some context and say, okay, we’ve got 50% there, but only 20% of those are advancing to view a product. We would consider that a problem. We have targets across each of those four metrics and the target for landing the product view is 50%. Okay. And so 50% of your homepage traffic should be reaching a product. Yeah. That is usually the angle at which we’re using to kind of understand where your problems are. And that’s usually what we’re looking at from a KPI standpoint, instead of conversion rate going layers deeper to really say, okay, it’s this segment. There’s quite a bit of traffic here. This is your biggest opportunity. What we’d call your metric on fire. And fire as in bad. This is not a good fire. This is a bad fire. You need to fix this. It’s not lit. It’s not lit at all. No, if you don’t fix this, it’s going to sabotage your group. growth kind of fire. Yeah,

Brenden Rawson: 4:53

okay. Sorry to jump in. Do you have many of your customers asking for a specific journey, like wanting to hit certain points or view certain pieces of information to get to product page or get to checkout to increase, I guess, the likelihood

Anthony Morgan: 5:15

of conversion? I think there’s certain opportunities or problems that we’re trying to solve for. I wouldn’t say there’s not, there’s not really brands coming in and saying, we need the user to view this collection. Oftentimes it’s like, you know, We know that when a customer purchases across multiple categories, they’re more sticky. And so how can we make that happen? And so oftentimes with apparel, it can work well driving to a collection page instead of a product page. It’s all dependent on the brand and the product and stuff like that. But sometimes that can work well. Your meta ads are driving to a collection instead of a PDP. They’re seeing more products. It can increase the likelihood that they buy multiple or they buy across multiple. categories which is always a win for LTV typically so there would be like cases like that where we’re using data points to understand the customer and ultimately the behaviors that we’re trying to influence. Because that’s an opportunity. We see that as an opportunity. Of course,

Brenden Rawson: 6:19

yeah. So for us, I guess, particularly with the Nurture series, we will get an email address through a pop-up data capture form. And our job is to tell the brand story, and with discounts possibly, to get that first purchase. But a lot of the time, it’s actually taking them on a journey of like, this is the brand, and this is what it means, and this is the quality. Let’s get you back to the site. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Anderson: 6:46

Yeah. Do you see in terms of channel you guys have, like, are you looking for different benchmarks for traffic? Maybe that’s coming from social versus organic versus email, let’s say.

Anthony Morgan: 6:58

Yeah. I mean, there’s definitely trends, um, in terms of our benchmarks at this point, we look at them kind of globally, but there is definitely trends. So like, you know, brands that drive, you know, any of your meta traffic typically, um, before brands start working with us. I mean even in general as they scale with us, are converting like half. They’re advancing from each metric at half of the average. You have your more higher intent paid channels like paid search or branded search. Those are going to advance at a much higher rate than… Of course, they should be more engaged. Yeah, 100%. And then email typically performs better. Organic is… It’s usually like paid social, paid search… organic direct email, sometimes direct depending on the brand, can be a lot of viral stuff. And so that could be even performing worse than paid search. But we still kind of strive for the same targets because the best brands that we see, like the most mature brands, they’re above the baseline across a lot of their segments. There’s particular ones that are really top of funnel that you’re never gonna have 12% of those users adding to cart when they land on the PDP. They’re in fact-finding mode. They’re not ready to buy. They’re not in market. But yeah, that’s kind of the approach for sure.

Jason Anderson: 8:21

Nice. And are you guys, if you’re working with a merchant and you’re coming up with these A-B test strategies and things like that, are you predominantly relying on… technologies that can help you do that AB testing on site, or are you guys manually kind of building out the dev on this and testing? Like what’s the approach there?

Anthony Morgan: 8:40

Yeah. I mean, so we use, uh, AB testing tools. Um, in our case, we’re predominantly using convert. Um, it, it, it allows us to run pretty robust, um, AB testing campaigns and move at a really fast velocity. Uh, and so that’s, uh, kind of the approach there. Um, every single, every single test that we run is traditionally through that. Now there’s other tools like Vermont, you could do leverage for more, uh, landing page or like funnel experiences that are more personalized and isolated from the onsite. But if we’re testing the traditional onsite, we’re leveraging an AB testing tool for sure.

Jason Anderson: 9:17

Yeah. Cool. And then when it comes to kind of that site personalization, are you looking at tools there? Like we’ve had Nosto on the pod before, for example. Rebuy is another one. Are those tools that you’re recommending as well, or are you more focused on maybe the creative, the design of those pages, the structure of the collections pages?

Anthony Morgan: 9:39

Yeah, I mean, so there’s definitely Rebuy is very commonly leveraged by a lot of the brands we work with. Same thing with Nosto. There’s others. When it comes to our efforts, oftentimes, and honestly in general, most brands aren’t quite there from a maturity standpoint to really invest heavily in the personalization stuff to really move the needle. And there’s foundational issues that they need to correct first. Yeah. And then you move over to the higher order things. So that’s kind of our approach is like, we need to get your interest rate funnel, right? Yeah. And then we can move on to Okay, how can we increase average order value? There’s obviously cases where it’s like, in order to really get your paid, right, we need to increase your average order value, like you can’t scale with, you know, your current CAC and you need to get first order profitable based off of your category. And we’ll solve for those types of problems. But traditionally, it’s pretty focused on like, you’ve got to get your intersite funnel right, get you foundationally well. And then, you know, sometimes six months to a year in, we’re then moving on to those like higher order things, average order value personalization. That makes sense.

Jason Anderson: 10:51

Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, like, it’s really, it’s interesting listening to you talk through it because I think, everything that you’ve said makes a lot of sense when tying back to saying that while conversion rate optimization is the skill right of CRO the reality is that you actually, if you just get all these other things right, the conversion rate will take care of itself. Like, you’re not sitting there and looking at the conversion rate specifically. It’s these other pieces in the funnel. And I think thinking about what is the average order value? Like, what is the cross category? Like, how are we doing these things that are, yeah, further in the weeds in terms of metrics that can be measured, but they’re the actual ones that allow you to scale your social and invest more across the business and things.

Anthony Morgan: 11:33

Yeah, for sure. There’s so many metrics that kind of play into that. Yeah. And that kind of brought up a thought for me when it comes to the metrics that we look at. Oftentimes we’re looking primarily at like lagging indicators. And there’s these leading indicators that can be leveraged to understand that lagging indicator. But so much of the focus is on these lagging indicators. Those are what fill up like the daily, you know, those are the metrics that are monitored daily. But we could pivot and shift towards, okay, well, let’s look at, you know, for instance, if you’re looking at convert Right. And you could look at the intersite funnel and use that as a leading indicator for, are we going to be like on track? Yeah. Are you, are you, you know, for paid social, like we’re driving them to the PDP, are they adding to cart kind of at our target rate? Yeah. Um, and that’s going to tell you traditionally, like how well are they going to do downstream? Obviously you might have issues where they’re adding to cart. There’s high abandoning, you know, high abandonment and that becomes an issue, but those leading indicators can be far more informed, informative than like looking at conversion rate or looking at average order value like there’s there’s a leading indicator to tie with that for sure

Jason Anderson: 12:45

yeah great um all right we had a little bit we were both hosting a round table yesterday and we had a healthy conversation um about pop-ups yeah about pop-ups um their efficacy the need for them um and i guess in the context of our two agencies who should be responsible for them?

Anthony Morgan: 13:08

Yeah. No, that’s a great question.

Jason Anderson: 13:10

Yeah. I think, um, I think you guys

Anthony Morgan: 13:12

actually asked that first.

Jason Anderson: 13:13

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Um, I’m really interested, I think in your perspective, cause, um, when it came up, it never really occurred to me that anyone other than us should be responsible for pop-ups. So I think as we got into the conversation, I could tell that you thought the same thing, you know, um, that obviously the CRO agency should be responsible for that piece. Um, I’m really interested in the strategies that you guys have seen around pop-ups. We’ve talked a little bit about this, but I’m interested to get your perspective and then we can give our perspective and kind of drill into this a bit on what’s really effective.

Anthony Morgan: 13:52

Yeah. No, it’s a very political area. Yeah. Because, you know, the reality is it influences everything. email just as much as it influences the onsite experience and conversion rate. And oftentimes it’s, It’s just kind of just thrown up there and not really thought about. There’s not a lot of testing around it. And there’s this high value for the email at the cost of what. And so when we’re talking about actual ownership of it, I think it’s the responsibility of whoever’s owning the on-site experience. Now there has to be really strong collaboration with email because if there isn’t cohesive messaging between you know, what’s happening in that pop-up, what’s the offer there, and it’s not carried over to the welcome series, or however you’re leveraging pop-ups, if that’s not, you know, cohesive across the customer journey, and that’s not, like, that’s very, we see that very often, that brands are super siloed. So there oftentimes can be big disconnects, you know, between paid social and the post-click experience, between email and, you know, CRO is like, well, these are the things that are friction points and that are ultimately the reasons why users are abandoning cart. We’re going to really, you know, focus on these, whether that’s on the product page or on the cart page, but then that’s never communicated to email. And so email has got this abandoned cart series and they’re not talking the same language. And that’s so like, that’s just so normal. And so that’s where there has to be a lot of collaboration when it comes to pop-ups. But I definitely think If it’s the on-site experience, it should be owned by a single person or a single team. And there has to be collaboration there. There has to be testing. When it comes to actual approach to email pop-ups, it really depends. I think… there’s a lot to think about with it, right? So you’ve got like targeting, where are you actually, who’s actually seeing it, on what pages are they seeing it? You have the actual timing, like is it based off of how far they scrolled or is it based off of how long they’ve been on the site? Or is it the second page that they go to? There’s a variety of different ways to tackle it. Then you also have like the UI of it and the UX of it. Like is it full page or is it smaller? Is it…

Jason Anderson: 16:28

Yeah, fly out or is it a drop down bar or… Yeah,

Anthony Morgan: 16:33

exactly. If CRO is doing it, they’re going to want to just put the discount code at the end of the pop-up. But email could say, well, actually we see some issues there with abuse. There’s discount code abuse and the percentage of discount codes that get used is heavily inflated and we’ve got users just making up emails.

Jason Anderson: 17:22

Yeah, exactly. I think that was our, we were talking about that yesterday and that’s our biggest concern and we see it a lot, particularly in fashion of fast-moving brands like that where people are hunting for those discounts, right? And shoppers are savvy these days. And what we’re finding particularly as our own agency evolves is we’re very concerned with the quality of the data that Klaviyo is now providing. bringing in and if we have customers who have shopped three times with the brand using three different email addresses we’re going to have really incorrect data about LTV purchase rates hero products there’s so many things that can be affected that can affect our strategies for what the second or third purchase the strategy around the automation there the products that are being recommended and if we have a pop-up at the beginning that’s incentivizing consumers to put any old email address in there so that they can get a 10% off on every order and they realize that they’re able to do that the compounding negative impacts on those strategies later on can actually be really bad particularly at scale but you’re right you know at the end of the day that there has to be a balance I think it was one of the very interesting things we had when we had Alia on the pod they were saying that they have in their opinion the AB testing the way they manage AB testing is one of the most important parts of their product and And they have a real emphasis on the conversion rate for subscribers and the conversion rate at checkout. And they will, like if you run a split test, they’ll kind of automate how much traffic is going into each test based on performance. And if they see a really high subscription rate, but a low checkout conversion rate, they’ll deprioritize that version because the subscriber metric is the vanity metric, right? You need the conversion, not just the subscriber.

Brenden Rawson: 19:18

Yeah, and I mean, back to the original question, I guess, why we traditionally see it as owl space is, you know, coming from a point where a dev agency has just set up an inline form or just set up a pop up or just installed a platform or, you know, the internal team have set it up and, you know, they’ve just set some basic options and, you know, you get an immediate 10% as soon as you hit the site and it covers up everything. So we take ownership in basically for all the reasons you just outlined is how we treat it internally. With time, with second page, what’s the intent? And actually, you know, like it says on the box, what is the customer journey of a first time visitor to a repeat visitor? Like the messaging needs to be different. So I think based on this, we’re the same, right? So I personally would feel comfortable with Anthony from eNavi looking after pop-ups. But we’ll see for anyone else.

Jason Anderson: 20:21

Yeah, I agree. I feel like I don’t want to be Switzerland on this, but I think… You make a good point. At the end of the day, I think for the same reasons that you want, it was the same reason that we would want to. We’re thinking beyond… Yeah, what’s the timing? What type of pop-up should they see if they’re on a product page versus a content-focused page? What if they initially close the pop-up out? How could they re-engage with that pop-up? Is there some sort of widget that would allow them to bring it back up? What if they close out and then they go to exit the site? Are we doing anything to capture their attention before we lose that traffic? Right. But I think those are all the same things that you’d be considering.

Anthony Morgan: 20:57

Yeah. No, 100%. And notice I said a CRO agency dev has a little bit of a different kind of view on pop-ups than like a CRO approach would be. And so that’s where if you’re really looking at onsite performance from a, I mean, conversion rate is the word I’ll use, but it’s not traditionally what we’re always looking at. That is going to give you a perspective where you’re, you’re really trying to make sure that email is getting what they need. Yep. And, and, users are not bouncing because they’re coming from meta and then all of a sudden they’ve got this disruptive pop-up after they click to go to the product page. And it’s just boom, right in their face, not what they anticipated. And they’re like, ooh, I’ll click that X and boom, I’m back into

Brenden Rawson: 21:45

my doom scroll. So I want to get into some actual client examples. But first, a little word from our sponsor.

Sponsor: 21:55

Founded in 2012, Klaviyo is the only CRM built for B2C brands. Powered by our built-in Klaviyo data platform and AI insights, Klaviyo combines marketing automation, analytics, and customer service into one unified solution, making it easy for businesses to know their customers and grow faster. Klaviyo helps relationship-driven brands of all sizes deliver one-to-one experiences at scale, improve efficiency, and drive revenue. Chat to the team at andzen or visit andzen.co forward slash klaviyo to find out more and get started.

Brenden Rawson: 22:37

And we’re back as usual, please go to anzan.co forward slash podcast. You can see the YouTube version of this one. You can also see all of our past episodes, liking and subscribing, Instagram, TikTok, the whole deal. There’s also a Klaviyo form there. If you put your details in, we can send you newsletters, we can send you updates, we can send you offers and let you know when all the next episodes come out. But before the break, we were going to talk about some client examples. Anthony, I assume you’ve got a bunch.

Anthony Morgan: 23:14

Yeah, I mean, so the one that really came to mind was a… It’s a recent one because I was taking a look at their numbers this last week. We’ve been working with this client for about a year. They sell frames for the Samsung TV. Nice. And they’re like the leading manufacturer for it. And so… When we started with them, foundationally, they had some issues from a functionality standpoint, from an accessibility standpoint, from a usability standpoint that needed to be addressed with their site. And so there was a mix of just do it’s and some testing that we did. They had some AR where you could view the actual TV frame on your wall. And they were investing a lot into that software. And so we ended up negative testing that. And it was actually not providing conversion lift I can’t remember the exact results of that but from a business decision it didn’t pay for itself yes and so they ended up removing that and so theirs was there was a lot of complexity to their issues I mean they sell like a $300 product and so it’s it’s definitely not you know a $30 yeah yeah yeah there’s there’s definitely some thought that goes into it they even have some more expensive ones too that are like gold plated or or whatever. They don’t move a lot of those ones, but they do exist. They’re driving traffic to collection pages, and so they had a product discovery issue. We got to get more users viewing products, finding the right product, and so having to address that. But then once the users were getting to their product pages, they were converting or adding to cart at very low rates. And since then, pretty much across every single segment, across all of their metrics, their performance has improved. pretty much doubled. And that’s like not, that’s very rare. Like this is not normal. And we’ve worked with them for a year. We can’t take credit for all of that. The reality is like there were some foundational issues that we fixed that made a significant improvement. There are some that human obsessed side. We’re really understanding those motivators, those friction points, updating their messaging, updating their coffee, you know, updating their product discovery in a way that helps users find the product that’s right for them based off the style they’re looking for. What are those things that they’re thinking about why do they choose one frame versus another frame. And then they, you know, there’s still more opportunity with them. Like it doesn’t stop there. Like, cause they’re, they’re growing their catalogs, expanding, they’re driving more and more traffic. They’re like have a partnership with Samsung now. And, you know, Samsung’s has them as like the leading or like the preferred option or whatever. And so there’s, there’s just so much opportunity to continue to improve because even from a baseline standpoint, they’re not quite there on, on most metrics. Yeah. Like, like their, their product view to add to cart rates, like eight and a half percent. Yeah. The target’s 12%. Yeah. Wow. And so they still have room, but they started at like 4%. Yeah.

Jason Anderson: 26:14

Yeah.

Anthony Morgan: 26:15

And like their meta traffic has doubled in performance. And so it’s been cool to see that because 2024 wasn’t an easy year for every brand. And, and at that price point, um, to be able to have that, you know, that significant of an improvement is really cool. And so we can’t take credit for all of it you know there’s there’s definitely some things that they’ve done on the marketing front that have that have helped support in that but there’s definitely a lot of that cro that has ultimately impacted the way their intersite funnel has improved over the last year

Brenden Rawson: 26:45

nice um are you ever done with cro like is it you ever reach a point where you’re like all right well i don’t think there’s anything else we can optimize here perfect

Anthony Morgan: 26:56

yeah i mean if if brands kind of were in a isolated box that was not affected by the market, by competitors, if they weren’t growing and adding products and trying to target colder and new audiences, if there wasn’t all of these things that were outside of their control that were affecting stuff, I mean, the reality is e-commerce is a moving target. It’s constantly shifting and changing. And so the minute you feel like you’re planted, there’s something that’s coming in and disrupting what you’re doing. Yeah, exactly. And so the, Your site is never optimized. The idea of a site being optimized is mostly out of a misconception of what it truly means to be optimized. There’s always room for improvement. And whether you’re declining or whether you’re growing, There’s definitely things that you should be doing to ultimately produce long-term sustainable growth through CRO. If you’re just looking at a conversion rate, sure, you can get the idea that we’ve got a great conversion rate, 3%. But if that’s the case, you’re probably not driving enough cold traffic.

Intro: 28:02

The

Anthony Morgan: 28:02

minute you start driving that cold traffic, your conversion rate’s going down. Was your site optimized? Not for that traffic.

Brenden Rawson: 28:10

We see exactly the same for customer journey, CRM or retention, whatever you want to call it. There’s always campaigns to be done. There’s always flow optimizations to be done. There’s always new and interesting flows that we can add. There’s economic… conditions that change things. But I guess just also the app landscape too. There’s a lot happening in software. It’s a lot of consolidation. There’s a lot of optimization that can be made. I don’t think we’re ever done.

Jason Anderson: 28:43

No, definitely not. But I think you talk about that. there’s a point where you get to segmentation, right? And so it’s the same thing in email. Like we might say, okay, you know, your abandoned car flow, because Klaviyo has those benchmark metrics, we’ve got clients that are in the 95th percentile of performance, right, in their category. And so they’re already killing it and doing better than anyone else, but… when you drill down and you say, well, actually what we can see is that people who are abandoning a cart that have never shopped before are still not converting at the rate of people who have, or, you know, like there’s still an extra five or 10% to be squeezed out of this segment. Do you go

Anthony Morgan: 29:21

down to like categories or

Jason Anderson: 29:23

particular products? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, um, for example, like brands that have subscriptions, like how many customers are subscribing to a single product versus a bundle product. Um, and like, what are we doing? Like you mentioned before that if they’re shopping cross category, they’re much more sticky, right? So then what are we doing to, we may have have a really successful post-purchase journey that is converting people into subscribers at a really good rate, but they’re single product subscribers. So what are we doing to, lift that subscription value so that their average subscribe time is in seven months it’s 14 months or whatever it might be yeah yeah

Anthony Morgan: 30:02

yeah there’s always opportunities there’s always new problems yeah absolutely no matter what you do in the eco space it’s constantly moving

Jason Anderson: 30:09

yeah i’m interested in um let’s say you’re a merchant listening to this um you’re you feel excited about the idea of looking at some of these indicators. What are some ways that a merchant could say, you know, is it GA4 that they’re jumping into right now and having a look at something? What are some numbers or places that they could go to just give themselves a bit of a gut check on maybe there are some of these areas that they’ve just been unaware of that are real, are on fire, you know, metrics for them?

Anthony Morgan: 30:38

Yeah. I mean, so if I was a, let’s say an e-comm director, it can be super difficult to focus. Yeah. Like I was in house at one point I wore all the hats. Like, should we be focusing on average order value? Should we be, you know, focusing on this product? Should we be focusing on this part of the funnel? Like there’s a bunch of different things that you could be spending your time on. Um, and it’s really easy to actually spend your time on the wrong things or spread yourself too thin and you only go an inch deep and you’re a mile wide. And so that’s where the intersite funnel approach helps you focus. And so we have a free report that you guys will link. And so if you use that, it’s literally one click. You just select the GA4 property you want to view, and it’s going to populate with the intersite funnel. So like we talked about, those four steps that lead to conversion. And it’s going to show you at a global level how you’re performing. And then it’s going to segment it down by kind of the key segments that we traditionally look at. And you can see, OK, well, mobile, We’ve got users landing on, we got, you know, 70% of traffic’s coming from mobile and we’re struggling, you know, landing to product view. You can go into GA4 and go a layer deeper and understand, okay, that mobile traffic’s landing on the homepage. Only, you know, 35% are advancing to a product page. What can we do to ultimately improve that? And so there’s additional… kind of data that needs to be layered on top of that and research to really understand why that’s happening. Now, you know where the fire’s at. You got to figure out what’s causing it and then ideate solutions from there. But sometimes the biggest the biggest thing is just knowing where. It’s too easy to just try to jump to throwing out solutions in these new shiny toys and never actually understand the problems and understand why they’re happening. If you could understand why that’s happening, it could have an impact on the way that you’re thinking about email. It could have an impact on the way that you’re thinking about your meta

Jason Anderson: 32:40

ads. Yeah, your merchandising, everything, right?

Anthony Morgan: 32:41

Exactly, because you could learn that, oh, the reason that users are struggling here is we’ve got a high percentage of like, repeat customers that are landing on the homepage they’re going to the navigation and the navigation isn’t laid out in a way that’s intuitive enough for them to find like a new category that they’re looking for or find a previous product that they purchased before and those learnings can be extracted and shared across all of your different all of your different marketing channels

Brenden Rawson: 33:08

yeah and if you’re too overwhelmed or just need some help call me Navi yeah absolutely so I guess I wanted to finish on i guess talking about being a niche agency well i guess opposed to a full service agency um we just do customer journey crm um you guys focus on cro um we have some really successful relationships with other agencies um i think historically like a lot of our um leads and a lot of our clients come from other agencies. I think it’s really interesting when you have two specialist agencies working side by side, both like super passionate and experienced in what they’re doing. I can already count a bunch of our clients off the back of this conversation that definitely need a CRO agency compared to, I guess, what they’re doing in house or what their dev agency is actually delivering for them.

Jason Anderson: 34:07

Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s one of those things where I mean, we obviously believe strongly in being specialists, right? We’ve been doing this for well over a decade now and haven’t added other services, but I think some of the depth of which you’re getting into That’s stuff you can only do if you’re a specialist agency.

Anthony Morgan: 34:28

When I was trying to do meta and email back in the day when I was freelancing and CRO, it was like, not a chance. It was once we niched down that it was like, okay, we can really become very good at this, bring in a strategic approach that kind of shapes the way that the brand thinks about their onsite experience. They think about their customer, the value of it. And so there’s so much value in being specialized as an agency. And I think like one of the things that is also, there’s pros and cons to it. The con is, when you’re coming into an organization, if you’re not full service and you’re not covering multiple things, you then need to get connected with who’s running email, who’s running meta, there’s a bunch of SEO traffic, who’s running SEO, and have, try to de-silo things as much as you can because it’s so siloed in organizations. Even organizations where a lot of it’s in-house, their own departments are siloed and so learnings aren’t being shared. And one of the things that we’ve been thinking about today actually Chris our head of ops had this analogy and I was like this is great it’s what we’re trying to do is this idea that CRO is this like elastic band or this like rubber band of like customer knowledge and insights that kind of wraps around the whole entire e-commerce department. And so you’ve got your email, your marketing, your SEO, your brand, and they’re all being fed customer insights that then they’re leveraging to experiment, to kind of, you know, obviously test on their end, see how they’re, how that impacts, you know, their abandoned cart flow. We just learned that this is a big friction point. Let’s address this in the first email that we send for an abandoned cart. And because the reality is like most agencies that are specializing and focusing in on like meta or SEO, or I don’t know if you guys do this, but I would assume you don’t have time to go in and talk to customers. And that’s kind of at the of what we do and so we’ve been like thinking about like cro and being so niched down as like a way to de-silo the lack of like the disconnected yeah the disconnected customer journey that we see

Intro: 36:53

yeah

Anthony Morgan: 36:53

um within organizations because of the siloing um and so i thought it was kind of a cool picture yeah and what we’re trying to do and being a uh you know a specialized niche agency can make that hard because you’re not maybe working with your own agency that’s coming in and owning all of it. But you can also work with incredible partners that are also specialized and do really good stuff too, which allows you to go layers deeper. You’re just doing one thing and doing it really freaking well.

Brenden Rawson: 37:22

Yeah, and I guess that sums our agency up as well. There’s been plenty of crossroads in the past where we’re like, okay, we need to grow or our clients are asking for these additional services. Do we spin up an S Do we spin up a PPC arm? And Jason and I just keep chatting. We’re like, no, we want to be specialized. We want to continue to build our reputation. And we want to be known globally as the best frigging agency doing this particular thing and then working with other people like yourself. Yeah, exactly. All right. What a way to end. Thank you so much, Anthony, for making the time. It’s been a blast hanging out the last month. Yes, for sure. Let’s make sure we keep it going. yeah 100% where can people find out more about eNavi find out more about you what do you got going on

Anthony Morgan: 38:15

yeah I mean so eNavi.co not com it’s too expensive my LinkedIn yeah Anthony Morgan on LinkedIn you can also check out Sheldon Adams on LinkedIn he’s our head of growth we both post a lot you’ll see us talking about CRO and kind of educating about that process and we enjoy to put out A lot of content. Share our secret sauce. And feel free to message us if you have questions about CRO or you take a look at the report and you’ve got questions. Just shoot us a message. We’re always happy to chat and educate.

Jason Anderson: 38:47

And that report, they just hop on the website, the report will be there? Yeah, we can give you guys a link. Yeah, I’ll

Brenden Rawson: 38:52

put all the links in the description. One more time for us and Zen.co as well. Don’t go to .com. It’s something strange. Forward slash podcast. Yeah, see you all on the next one. Thanks, everyone. Cheers. Thanks, guys.

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