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Jason Anderson: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of the Andzen Approach. My name’s Jason, director at Andzen. Today we’re joined by two wonderful women. We’ve got Tiara, who is an agency operations specialist, and Rachel, who, if you don’t know, is apparently your own. Problem. Uh, but no, in all seriousness, Rachel is probably the leading authority really in e-commerce agencies, um, globally.

We’ve had the fortune of meeting in Australia last year when you were here. Oh, sorry, there. Um, but yeah, really great to have you guys on the show. And of course we’ve got Brenden as well, founder at Andzen.

Brenden Rawson: Hello. Hello, uh, ladies. Fabulous to have you both. Here we are in Vegas for Shop Talk. How good. Um. We made some time.

Um, thank you for [00:01:00] both making some time. Uh, we are gonna chat all things agency, operations, operations in general. Um, let’s kick it off.

Jason Anderson: Yeah, I think this is a really fun episode. I think very different to something that we’ve done before where I. Traditionally we’ve had platforms. Yeah. On the show we have had another agency on the show as well, but it’s, everything’s been very geared towards merchants from a strategic point of view of doing their marketing and you know, be that how you’re doing loyalty or reviews or whatever it might be.

Um, but I think today. It’s a really good opportunity to talk about how can these merchants do effectively what we do at agencies and build teams that are effective at marketing. And you know, you’re not having waste, um, or problems like that. You’re building a team that’s really switched on, understand their areas, and then get really strong results.

So I think with that in mind, I’d love to start maybe with. From each of you, what one area is [00:02:00] of opportunity for merchants or where you see merchants maybe having a big area of opportunity not leveraging the way that agencies do?

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah, I guess I can kick off. I, I, I specialize in agencies. That’s my bread and butter.

I don’t think anything, I think we’re probably the only guess maybe that you’ll ever have that are not trying to pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Like the, the merchants, the brands are not our target audience at all. We’re on the other side of it. Um, but as part of my work, I run host or co-host brand retreats. Mm-hmm.

We’ve got one coming up together, uh, the end of this week in Arizona. Yeah. And I did one recently in Costa Rica, and then one the month before in Grand Canary. So this will be the third in three months. And it’s the first time that I’ve been like, kind of reintroduced or re-exposed to brands again after being on the agency side working directly with brands.

And it was really interesting to just be in front of brands, number one. I’m glad I don’t work with ’em because it’s like so much more complicated now than it was eight years ago when I was in the brand space. [00:03:00] Um, uh, but it was really interesting to be around brands and hear a lot of their challenges that they’re having with agencies and hear like there’s just, the space is so saturated with, yeah.

Like Shopify have made the barrier to entry, like idiot proof. Yeah. You can have like half a brain cell and a phone. Yeah. And you’re running an agency. Yeah. Like there is no barrier. Klaviyo have made it absolutely the same path. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And unfortunately that means that it, there’s just so much trauma and baggage Yeah.

That comes for brands now, especially when brands are playing at that bigger league. Yep. When they’re doing millions of dollars, they’ve worked with a lot of agencies and been burnt. Yep. And for me it’s like the analogy of dating somebody and then they’ve been cheated on like five times. Yeah. And you have to deal with that baggage.

Yes. Like you’re the one that’s just like, you can look at my phone, I’m not cheating on you, I’m just going to the bathroom. I drank way too much water. Like I’m not going to take someone. Um, so it was really interesting to be around brands. I’m just here like [00:04:00] how much trauma and baggage there is working with agencies and then have some people like, oh, we have an amazing agency or amazing agencies we work with.

And other people are just like, I hate working with agencies. And that’s why a lot of brands, uh, will bring everything in heis. Sure. ’cause they just feel like that’s the only way to go about it. Yeah. I think that increasingly now agencies will have to specialize. Yeah. Like they’re gonna have to specialize and they’re gonna have to niche to be able to deliver real value.

Mm-hmm. Because most brands are gonna bring as much as they can in-house. But what you get from an agency is that. Wealth of knowledge from all of the brands that you’re working with and all of the industry access. Yeah. You don’t get that in house.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah. And that’s, that’s both our challenge and our opportunity of, you know, having merchants being a lot more skeptical and have been burned in the past.

Um, and us having to do a lot more work to sort of earn their trust to, to bring them on board. Mm-hmm. But also the opportunity, um, for us that, I mean, I think we’re pretty damn good [00:05:00] at what we do. Yeah, absolutely. We’ve been doing it for a while, uh, 13 years now. We’ve had a, uh, all the years of. You know, making those early mistakes and figuring things out as sort of some of these newer agencies, um, have, uh, so it is quite an opportunity for us, but for sure, um, getting through what seems more common now where you chat to a, a merchant, they’re like, well, I’ve been burned.

Yeah, yeah. So like, what are you gonna do to prevent that from happening again?

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah. But the reality, the analogy that I like to use, dating is always a good one. Uh, it’s eating out, right? We’re in Vegas, so we’re all gonna be like picking out for the whole week. But we’ve all had. A shit meal. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t mean you never eat out again.

It just means that your decision making process for where you go to eat out is like, you’re gonna have word of mouth, you’re gonna have referral. Like I said to you today, will we go to Diablos Cantina and you guys have eaten there? And I’m like, okay. Sold. Yeah. Can you look at the reviews? So it just means that your decision making process should be more comprehensive and more diligent.

Like, that’s the difference. It, it doesn’t mean that you never do it again. You’re never gonna date again because you’ve been cheated on. [00:06:00] You. Just make sure that the person that you’re dating in the future. Is of a higher caliber or doesn’t have all those red flags or like a lot of people we know just keep doing the same shit over and over again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tiara Tragas: Keep dating cheaters. I think what I was gonna, uh, my kind of biggest, you know, mistake that I see and it relates to this exactly, is that as agencies grow and as brands grow, they grow their teams. So they have a lot more seats at the table. They have a lot more people to feed and a lot of stakeholders and decision makers.

Yeah. And you know, even when I come in, I’m unbiased. I have no feelings attached. Yeah. So I am kind of giving them the truth and I’m looking at the data and the numbers, right? Mm-hmm. And I’ll give them recommendations and then they just sit on them. Mm-hmm. Right? And I see this analysis paralysis where, because there’s so many people in the room.

We can’t come to a decision, so we just have calls and calls. Like endless calls it feels like. [00:07:00] Yeah. And we actually don’t move the needle forward. So then we do a look back a year later and the goalpost. Hasn’t moved, or maybe it has and we wanna keep doubling revenue. Mm-hmm. We always wanna double revenue, but what have we done to actually double that revenue?

Right. Yeah. And it’s like, well we didn’t wanna pull any of these levers that the data told us to. So, you know, you see this a lot of times, even in your own, you know, personalized, when you have more people to think about, it’s harder to make that decision, but it doesn’t mean that no decision should be made.

Yeah.

Tiara Tragas: Um. And you see a lot of times where, especially on the operations side, you know, you may have a clear plan for marketing, um, sales, all these things, but the operations are like your core, you know, internal makeup, right? Yeah. And your foundation. And if you’re not proactively looking at, you know, your operations and making decisions around them, every other department is gonna suffer.

Yeah. Yeah.

Tiara Tragas: Right? And that can apply to every business. So every single

Rachel Jacobs: business. Yeah, [00:08:00] I, I did a, a presentation recently, our webinar series for Shopify, and one of the statistics was 70, 77% of global leaders will focus on operations to maximize revenue. Like that will be their main form of rev. Like, I mean, that’s three more than three quarters.

Yeah. So that’s in spite of like what industry or what category you’re in. So operations or profit, like operations is profitability. That’s what it comes down to. So it’s maximizing efficiency. So if you’re not focused on that as a business, so that’s me being efficient with the brand or the partners.

Tech partners you’re working with are using agencies that you’re working with, like all of, if you’re not like. Making all of that as efficient as possible, you are losing money. Yeah. Like that’s what it comes down to. Yeah. Absolute. I think as

Tiara Tragas: well, I see like, you know, a lot of these big companies, they have, um, you know, an accounting department, right?

Mm-hmm. Or finance department, small agencies a lot of times will outsource that kind of thing, right? Yeah. So maybe they just have like, they call ’em their bookkeeper.

Yeah. But

Tiara Tragas: are [00:09:00] they. Analyzing the data based on the operational business context, right? Yeah. Not just what happened in the profit and loss statement.

You need to understand what happened with your team and utilization in order to know what hap you know how to speak to those numbers, right? Yeah, yeah. And then have someone who can. Not just say, Hey, here’s how you did last month. Okay, well, how do we proactively plan for the next three months to hit our goals?

I mean, no

Brenden Rawson: disrespect to bookkeepers. They’re very important, but I mean, what they’re, they’re doing is loading in receipts and invoices. They’re not really analyzing your business at all, right? I mean, it’s reactive. Accountants pretty much the same as well. They’re really just preparing for tax.

Tiara Tragas: Right?

Brenden Rawson: Um, you need internal finance, operation, finance.

Tiara Tragas: Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s kind of that, that blending of operations and finance, you know, someone who can see the numbers or see that someone is being paid for full time. I didn’t turn with them.

And not

Tiara Tragas: working full-time, and then reach out to them and say, Hey, I noticed like, you know, something going on.

Or, you know, but a bookkeeper, they’re not gonna reach out to your team and, and [00:10:00] ask those kind of questions. So,

Brenden Rawson: so I used to be a COO, like I, I guess I’m an operations based. Founder, CEO. That’s why we, that’s why we

Rachel Jacobs: love each other. So yeah. This is why it works. That’s why we bond.

Brenden Rawson: Uh, Jason, um, came up, um, in account management and went into operations.

Yep. Previous, um, COO we are both heavy operations people.

Mm-hmm.

Brenden Rawson: Um, Jason’s now doing sales. I, I guess I’m doing more growth. Um, we don’t really have someone, I guess, dedicated to operations now. Mm-hmm. And I’ll be honest, I’m feeling it, I’m feeling the difference of. When you were in a dedicated ops role, um, and you know, founder across the numbers as well, and we were constantly chatting.

Um, so I guess the point I’m making is like, even when we set everything up perfectly right, we can’t just leave it, right? Yeah. But operations is the, is constantly moving operat, it’s a living, breathing thing and it’s like,

Rachel Jacobs: it constantly requires like your, as your business is growing, it requires constant iteration.[00:11:00]

I always, I always like in operations, it’s probably. It’s like being a nurse. It’s the most thankless job that you could ever have because it’s just constant shit. Yeah. Like you’re just constantly dealing with problems and it’s like a game of whack-a-mole and they’re like, best ones fixed. Oh shit, okay.

There’s another problem over there. And then another problem here, and you fix those and like, oh, that problem came back. But now it’s uglier and angrier and worse. That’s awesome. Ops. People love that though. Like they love the, because like salespeople, you get a high from closing the deals. Ops people, we get a high from solving.

Solving a problem. Solving problems. Solving. Yeah. Like we just love fixing stuff. We’re fixers. Like you know that TV show scandal? The girl, Olivia Pope, she’s like a fixer for the, uh, for the White House. Okay. Okay. And there’s like a TV show that ran for years, and she’s just a fixer. So anything that happens, there’s a dead body or there’s a prostitute.

She’s a fixer. So that’s what ops is.

Brenden Rawson: My, my team always gets, uh, annoyed and frustrated because, uh, whenever there’s a single problem, um, I don’t fix the problem. I build the whole solution to prevent that ever happening again. Right. And then rather it [00:12:00] being like. Uh, I mean, a 32nd answer to solve their problem today.

I’ll be like, two, come back in two days with an entirely new process. Mm-hmm. Analyze all of the data about how many times this has happened. Um. But it’s, I think, I just feel an ownership of that. Like we are building an agency. We’re going, if this problem happened now, it’s probably gonna happen again tomorrow.

The, and the bigger you get, the worse the problem can become. Exactly. Like, how much time, how much money is this costing? I cannot let it go. Yeah. We have to fix it now.

Tiara Tragas: Yeah. You know, anything that an agency does more than once. We can create a process for. Yeah, yeah. You know, and we can, it’s all about like learning from those mistakes, but if you are willing to fail fast, and that’s the thing about being able to identify something and make a decision.

Mm-hmm. And say, okay, well next time this is how we’re gonna prevent this. And making sure that your team has a culture where. Yeah. They’re accepting, you know? Yeah. They understand what happened and we can move on from it. And there’s not this big drama about what happened and everyone’s side slacking about it.

Yeah. And all [00:13:00] that kind of stuff just creates a lot of unnecessary chaos and drama there. Mm-hmm. Um, and something that you said as well, like when no one owning operations, like sometimes I’ll come in and, and an agency doesn’t wanna do like retainer base, right. They just want a one time project. Yeah. So I’ll come in, I’ll audit all of their data.

And I’ll set up for them tools so that they can do utilization reporting on their own, whether that’s through a tool or we set it up through spreadsheets. Sure. And we’ll also set up a p and l forecast that either their bookkeeper can import the data monthly, um, or they can kind of do it themselves. And what happens is.

After I set it up and it looks all beautiful. Yeah. It goes untouched because no one is constantly there analyzing it. Right. And being that glue for the agency. And that’s how you can kind of get ahead of issues. Yeah. Right. By looking at the data, kind of spotting things ahead of time. It’s kind of like a nurse and looking at symptoms before the big problem arises.

Right. And so many, yeah. It’s

Rachel Jacobs: like the difference between. Catching stage four cancer and [00:14:00] catching stage one. Right. That’s ultimately the difference. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That’s what operations is. Operations is because it’s like the same shit over and over again. Like for the most part, none of this stuff.

You may get some outliers, but for the most part it’s all, especially when you’ve been in this business for a long time, it’s like. I can walk into any agency and within 10 minutes I’m like, I already know what your problems are. I, I, I know where to look in the data to find the problems. So it’s not rocket science, but it’s having a system in place that allows you to be a wee bit more proactive.

Hmm. Um, and it’s the same for any business. Yeah. Like, whether it’s an agency or brand, it’s the same thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Tiara Tragas: I, I get a lot of agencies that will come to me and say, oh, but, um, the way we do things is so different. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It’s, it’s so different over here and, oh, you know, you know how to use this tool, but the way our projects work, and I’m like, okay, well let me just take a look.

And then I got, I did an audit recently and I got to the call and I’m like, what was it again that you did so differently? Because I couldn’t seem to understand they wanted to migrate their whole project management tool. I’m like, you can. Use the tool you have, you [00:15:00] just need to learn how to use it.

Optimize it, use it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, they’re like, I did I say that? I’m like, yeah, you really said that. You guys were so different. So, but when you’re so in it, it’s hard to, with echo chamber,

Brenden Rawson: but we’re great. We

Tiara Tragas: Yeah. You, it’s in your personal life too. Like you just feel like your problems are so big.

Yeah. And so unique. And then when you talk to others, you’re like, oh, shit. Like mm-hmm. We’re all going through the same thing, so

Brenden Rawson: yeah. Uh, so I guess on that, we, I mean we have had, uh, a few different consultants over the time. Um, we’ve worked with some financial advisors over the time and we’ve had various documents that we ha that have been created for us, um, that we’ve taken over and adapted ourselves.

But I. I feel like Jason and I are both like in those documents multiple times a day. Um, quite lucky, you know, we have some toggles for different scenarios as well, so we can see like where are our, um. Sales pipeline. Mm-hmm. What is that looking like? What are the [00:16:00] renewals versus what are the new business?

What are our sales targets? Um, what are our costs looking like? Um, and I, I feel like you and I are constantly going back and forth on, um, where, where is our pipeline? Um, where is our resourcing? Yeah. When can we close these deals? When is the next start date? Um, I think we’d be lost without

Jason Anderson: that. Yeah, no, we, and we,

Brenden Rawson: honestly, we were back in the day.

Jason Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this is kind of like a good way to bring it back to, you know, merchants that might be listening to this and thinking about some of these insights, how they could put them into place. That, on the operational front, the forecasting, that’s how you build your roadmap, right? Of what you want to achieve.

And if you are looking at your agency costs, or maybe there’s a specific. Specific specialization that you feel like would just be better handled in-house than being outsourced? The confidence that you need to pull the trigger on a full-time hire, because there’s a lot that comes with that, right? [00:17:00] You know, you’ve got, if they have, I mean, in North America, a 401k in Australia we call it super.

Um, you know, you’ve got tax implications, all that sort of thing. If you’re not looking at your operational process, it’s almost impossible to make that decision with any degree of confidence. And if you don’t and you, and you misfire or maybe, um, you know, you invest less than you could and you have to go for a more junior resource, or you invest more than you should or can’t afford for someone senior who’s ineffective, it can be really disastrous.

Tiara Tragas: Totally.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah. And I mean, I think we’ve got our shit together. But, um, there’s so much more we could do. Mm. There’s still so many areas that we haven’t touched or areas that we’ve sort of left for a year or so that need to be sort of revisited. Um, Rachel Tiara

Rachel Jacobs: starting to feel like a bit of a therapy, so, yeah.

No, I can over You gonna start crying? Yeah. What are you

Brenden Rawson: seeing in the sort of, um, broader agency landscape? Like what are some of the common [00:18:00] problems that agencies are facing?

Tiara Tragas: Yeah, I think for, from the, I see all the time is that, you know, sales and delivery are not speaking to one another. Yeah. Um, or it’s like on a as need to know basis, so.

We’re, if the service or delivery team is hearing about the deal, only when there’s a signature, it’s too late. It’s almost right. And then the first experience that the merchant is gonna have with the project manager is gonna be, Hey, this is really for what you want versus the package you bought. They don’t match.

Yeah. So immediately then the merchant’s going back to the sales person, like, I hate my project manager. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then the project manager doesn’t feel empowered to. You know, a line scope and then they can’t meet budget and we’re not profitable. So it’s a really like ripple effect. Um, so it sounds basic, but like communication.

Yeah. I always, uh, encourage and set up for my agencies to have a weekly pipeline call and that pipeline calls with sales and, you know, heads of delivery. Mm-hmm. To [00:19:00] talk through deals that are at, like stakeholder buy-in and beyond. You wanna make sure that. The sales team is running those scopes past, you know, your technical lead or your head of marketing before they present it to the client because they’re gonna ask questions that maybe the sales person isn’t thinking about.

Yep. Also, having the operations person there to kind of already build those deals into the for financial forecast and convert those deals into. Hours per week. Yeah. Plug that into utilization planning so that they can proactively understand when and if we need to hire. Mm-hmm. And it becomes a lot more of a proactive decision and you can, you know, tell HR or recruiting like, Hey, we wanna open up some job recs and just kind of get a bench loading.

Um, and then you don’t pull the trigger on that higher until you see those deals come in. Yeah. Um, I also love to make sure that we start to, if you’re. An agency of size, it looks, I know salespeople like wanna get started right [00:20:00] away, or they think it’s such a good look. I honestly, if, if I’m going to get a tattoo or my hair girl and she’s like, I’m available tomorrow.

Ew. Like, I want you to be busy. Yeah. You know, not too busy. Mm-hmm. But like a standard two weeks from signature to kickoff, it looks professional. Mm-hmm. We have processes that we’re doing internally to make sure we’re prepared. Mm-hmm. It gives me time to like make that decision on that hire that I’ve already been interviewing.

Right. Yeah. Or if, if we did have no notice, which happens two weeks is not enough time to hire, make a good hire. Mm-hmm. And I see this a lot where. Um, then you end up going to Fiverr or Upwork and you find someone really shitty or you just, you use your own team to service it. And they may be already overutilized Yeah.

They’re exposed. They’re

Jason Anderson: just learning as well. Right, right. Or they’re not experienced. So

Tiara Tragas: it’s, it’s a lose lose for us and the merchant. So kind of that proactive planning and making sure that. Sales, ops and service are all chatting about deals. Um, and you guys have a [00:21:00] great way that you have empowered your sales team to scope those deals themselves.

Yeah. Yeah. So that’s wonderful ’cause it. Requires less time from the service team, but we still need that time once it’s signed to like really roadmap and plan. And I’ve seen such a difference in the morale of a project when that project manager feels so confident, comfortable with what was sold. They don’t feel like.

They’re overworked or that they can’t handle it. And then the client merchant experience is just, you know, they’re really proactive in that whole relationship. So,

Jason Anderson: yeah, I think the, that the scoping tool that you were talking about, that Brenden built, that was a big thing for us. Because what if, if you don’t have a tool like that and a sales person is trying to hit a budget or a number, what they’ll end up doing is.

Just putting everything in and then selling it at that number. Right? And there’s no really vis visibility to how many hours or what the hourly rate is. Um, and that’s when that tension creeps in, right? Because then they come to the [00:22:00] delivery team and say, well, the budget was 10 grand, so, you know, here you go.

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s just not enough time. Whereas, um, you know, in our tool, like we’ve built things like discounting and things in there so that a salesperson, if you have to hit a number. You gotta keep the hours in there. ’cause the team will spend the hours no matter what. If you promise them that it’s gonna get done and they’re giving you 10 grand, that’s it.

You are getting the work done. You’re gonna spend the hours. Yeah. I would

Rachel Jacobs: say like, to take it back to the brand perspective, if a brands that have bad experiences with agencies, like for me, right, when I, I work with agencies all the time and it’s been my whole life for the last, what, nearly 10 years now.

And then I think, okay, well this is the circus that’s going. On inside the agency. Yeah. How, like what is the repercussions? Who are the consequences? Like who are the casualties? It’s the brands that are casualties. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why the brands are then going from agency to agency to agency burnt.

Yeah. Because the agencies internally don’t have their shit together. Yeah. So it’s just like, for example, if I [00:23:00] was looking for, let’s say Tiara is getting married, not to me yet. Mm-hmm. Let’s just say we’re in Vegas. Yeah, exactly. That’s true. Yeah. It doesn’t count here. Um, but let’s say Tiara is getting married.

And she’s getting her, she wants to get a caterer in, and then she’s like, oh, okay. So like in your normal, like home life, what do you eat? Ah, microwave meals. I’ll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. This does not feel like a great fit because if that’s the food that you’re cooking for yourself, then I don’t feel confident.

Or if you’re looking for interior designer or something like that at their house is like a bag of shit. Yeah. It’s just like, okay, I don’t really trust this person’s judgment because you have to really live it. Yeah. So with the, the brand retreats that I’ve done recently, um, I challenge brands and say, ask the agency.

I know that you’re here for a specific project. You know, I want my emails rebuilt, I want my great to a new tool. I want a website redesign, whatever it is that you’re looking for, if. Ultimately you should be looking for a strategic relationship and a strategic partnership between the brand and the [00:24:00] agency.

Yeah. So challenge the agency and ask them what is your process internally? Mm. What does your process look like? Actually have a nice visual that I use, um, for some of the, uh, webinars and, and workshops that I do and with some of my agencies. We actually have a visual inside the brand deck. That shows you this is our process and this is your process.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is how, what we have to do internally, and then we do these five things and you do those two things, and then we do these, and then you do those just to really give an, uh, the, the brand or, or that relationship between the two of them that it’s like, well, this is how we work together as a team and this is what we have to do.

Agencies who don’t have that or are very reactive. Any company that’s very reactive. There are going to be casualties and it’s just gonna feel super messy. And that’s where money is lost. Yeah. Because ultimately, if you’re not in business to be profitable, run a charity. Do you know what I mean? I,

Brenden Rawson: I think that’s a good point.

And I want to, uh, specifically ask you how [00:25:00] you get, um. I guess founders or owners violence to get their shit violence. But before you answer, we’re gonna go to a word from the sponsor. Um, and then you tell me all about how you keep agency owners in line. The violent time. Yeah, the violent strategies.

Rachel Jacobs: Okay.

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Brenden Rawson: And we are back. Uh, another reminder, [00:26:00] please go to zen.co/podcast. Uh, you’ll of course get this episode, all of our other episodes. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, uh, Spotify, YouTube.

You can find us on Instagram and also TikTok now as well. Yep. All of the things. Uh,

Rachel Jacobs: we do a wee TikTok dance later. Let’s do that. Yeah. God, she was a dancer. We’re We need the views. Break dancers. She was a wee dancer. A break dancer. Yeah. Oh my God, that’s amazing. Bring that fireball shut over here.

Brenden Rawson: Rach, how do you keep people like me in line?

Rachel Jacobs: Well, the violence wasn’t a joke. Yeah, no. I think ultimately it comes down to, um, the rapport that you have. Like, I mean, you know, right. ’cause you’ve met a lot of the agencies that I work with we’re all very similar. Like, we’re all a bit like kind of playful and cheeky and like.

We’re straight shooters and we don’t take ourselves too [00:27:00] seriously. So I’m very intentional about, like, I know my personality type, a little

Brenden Rawson: stress induced, um, insanity.

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah, we, we bit of things. Speak yourself. I’m perfectly saying. I you’re,

Jason Anderson: although you were gonna say, I’m not stressed at all. I’m just insane.

Not stressed. I’m just mental

Rachel Jacobs: and I’m totally fine with it. Um, no, but I think being really intentional, especially for me, like I’ve built this community for the last six or seven years and there’s like, I’ve got a network of. 20,000. Wow. In an active community of a few thousand agencies. But I think, I mean, you can’t have everybody, all carbon copies.

Yeah. And if they were all like me, we’d all be dead because that would be way too mental. Um, but being really intentional about the people that I’m working with. I know that we took a while to kind of get to know each other and like. That whole initial phase. There’s some agencies like, uh, the guy in Netherlands, Omar.

Mm-hmm. We’ve known each other for years. Um, and we just slowly built that relationship. So it means that when I need to have a more direct conversation, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, they know it’s [00:28:00] coming from a place of love. I’m not gonna go in and like, you’re a complete arsal and your life’s of failure. No, of course not.

But there’s times when I’ve had to like, have a come to Jesus moment. Yeah. And like, you need to buckle up. Like this, if this is what you wanna do and we’re gonna do this together, do not waste my time. Yeah. Like the money is not worth it for me. So we’re either gonna get results or we’re just gonna dig around here.

And this is just like some sort of like social club, in which case I’m not interested. Yeah. Um, but I think having a really clear sense of like plan and vision of what it is that you are looking to achieve and if that can align with what I’m doing. ’cause I think for you guys really the expansion internationally was a big thing and.

You know that I have a pretty big network, of course, internationally of, and I have this community of agencies and everybody is just super collaborative and everybody loves each other and like wants to work together and um, wants to help each other out. So what you were looking to do beyond the tangible stuff, like the tangible stuff, I need to by get my operations together and I need to grow this agency and like all of that tangible [00:29:00] stuff.

But there’s all of that, you know, like they say like 80% of communication is nonverbal. Yeah. It’s that nonverbal stuff. That for me is what’s really impactful because you’re not gonna get like massive wins every single time you have a call. It’s, that’s not what it’s gonna be about. But if you’re, both of your goals are aligned and you’re both moving in the same direction, and I can say like a lot of the agencies.

That are here for Vegas. Yeah. A lot of them are riding the coattails of what I’ve already put in place. Yeah. And I’m totally good with that. They’re just like, we want to expand in America, we wanna meet with more partners, we want more visibility. And I’m like, okay, well I’ve got 650 people coming to meet up tomorrow.

Who do you want? Here’s the list. You tell me who you wanna connect with, who do you wanna have meetings with? What sort of conversations? And let me line it all up for you. So it’s not just that tactical, let’s grow the business and let’s do this and get those wins. It’s also like, okay. How do we take this to the next level?

How do you, it’s even like the relationship that I have with Tiara, which I’m very blessed. It’s business and personal and we both respect each other and love each other. And [00:30:00] I’ve sent, uh, clients that I used to work with, she’s now taking care of them, but it’s like, how do I take what I’ve done? You’re talking

Brenden Rawson: to Tiara.

Rachel Jacobs: Yes, I know. Through me. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe this is the plug. This is, I know we joked earlier about doing a baptism, but maybe this will be the, the business version. Um, but it’s like, how do you take. How do I take what I’ve done and then other people around can leverage that and how do you take what you’ve done and the other people that you’re working with that we can all like what I say, it’s like a rising tide.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Did that sound like I was a bit of a prophet or Yeah. That groove about it. It didn’t, it didn’t sound too violent. I mean, there, there are threats of violence. Yeah, they’re, they’re usually playful, but I’m always. Ready for go time. I’m always fight. Ready. Yeah. Same. It’s like Conor McGregor, but less mental, which is not saying much.

Tiara Tragas: I think for me, when I’m working with, you know, CEOs, it’s a lot of times, especially within the US it’s stripping that ego back. Yeah. [00:31:00] And reminding them of, you know, the goals that we have in mind because there’s this like. CEO Brain.

Yes. Of like,

Tiara Tragas: oh, I have a new idea. They’re entrepreneurs, right? Yeah. So you guys have this shiny new idea and then you bring it to your team and your team is like, oh my God, like this is the furthest thing from what we wanna do.

Guilty sometimes. Yeah. So having someone like Rachel or I to kind of ground you and say, okay, we can do that, but. Like, let’s do that in Q3, or it’s not important right now. We need to focus on this, you know, pressing issue. Um, to kind of have like that soundboard, you know, that doesn’t have feelings involved, um, is super important.

And then on the flip side. I oftentimes have to work with heads of departments to execute set goal.

Mm-hmm.

Tiara Tragas: And their feelings are really involved, right? Yeah. And they are so emotionally attached to the work they do and how they do it. Mm-hmm. And so when I am coming in and [00:32:00] working with them. I kind of put on, I, it’s like a therapy session with them where I say, okay, what do you like about what you do?

What do you dislike? And usually it’s like, I hate the sales team. I hate the service team. They never give me information. They’re, you know, they’re always like, it’s a Spider-Man. Yeah, me, where they’re like pointing the finger each other. And I already know how it’s gonna go down. And sometimes they’re like, why should I trust you, kind of thing.

So I kind of like break down their walls and say, I wanna support you and I wanna help you. You’re department there to help

Rachel Jacobs: them win. Yeah. And

Tiara Tragas: so really building that trust with them. Individually. Um, and then saying, okay, I understand how you want things to be done, how they’re being done today based on my agency knowledge, right?

And speaking to all the other departments. We’re gonna give a little, here, we’re gonna take a little there, and then they kind of, you know, so it’s a relationship and then you can kind of see those sales and delivery aren’t gonna be best friends. But, um, if you can get them to get along a little bit better.

CEO can sleep a little bit [00:33:00] better at night. We have a little room to work on that shiny toy and we can kind of grow that business. So,

Rachel Jacobs: but ultimately, whether it’s on the, again, agency side, brand, merchant side, it’s about trust. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because you’re putting your trust in the hands of other people and that takes time to build.

So for me, it’s like you need to, like, again, like any relationship, like we’ve known each other for. 3

Tiara Tragas: 20 19.

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah. What? 20? Really?

Tiara Tragas: No, 20, 22.

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, three, three plus years now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it’s only in the last year that we’ve really built a relationship that’s, I mean, before it was more tactical and it was like worse work based and respect each other.

And we really liked each other. But then it’s like building that deeper trust that you know, the other person has your back. Mm-hmm. And even if you are, again, just like in a relationship, my husband might not. Say it the right way, but I know that he has his my best intentions at heart. Yeah. Yeah. I know that what he’s saying is for my best interest, so I might not like the way he’s saying it or I might not [00:34:00] want to hear it, but I know that it’s for the right reason, and that’s ultimately what it comes down to in any relationship between a.

A merchant, an agency, an agency and a coach or whatever it comes down to really, okay, what are your goals? How can I help you achieve them? And anytime things are kind of going off the rails of being like, listen, I’m here to help you achieve those goals. You might not like all of my methods of doing that, but the end goal is for you to win.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s all I care about. I want you to succeed. So this is not an ego exercise. I’m not here to blow smoke up your arse. Yeah. I’m here for you to be successful. And I think if you can. Build up and, and like doing stuff like this, right? I mean, you come into Austin and then coming to Grand Canaria.

Yeah. Like that ultimately for me was like, okay, so Brandon is really invested in doing this together. And like you really, for me, that was a big sign to me to show that like, okay, you really wanted to do this and that. I’m like, okay, if you’re invested, then I’m invested.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah. And that’s exactly how I felt.

You know, being more intentional about. Um, you know, following the relationship through [00:35:00] mm-hmm. And making effort on my side, making sure that, you know, we, are we gonna burst the tears, developed a relationship.

Rachel Jacobs: Um, we are gonna start crying. No, we talk

Tiara Tragas: about this a lot, but like, people have to want. They have to be ready, they have to want to focus on finances or operations from, I mean, it’s not like you can just bounce and to see the problem.

Yeah. You can’t just bounce from, I mean, you might literally be bouncing from call to call, but when you, when it’s time to talk to Rachel on our call, we need your full attention. Yeah. And we need you to actually take action after the call or think critically about what we’re saying. You can’t be having a bunch of tabs open while we’re talking.

I’m looking at your deepest, darkest, yeah. Data. You know, I’m in bed with your finances, your processes, your people. These are really important things and I treat them with so much care and respect and, and want the best for you guys. So, um, but the, the other side has to want it to, of course, you know, I can’t just like come fix all your problems and someone did a referral, uh, for me.[00:36:00]

And they were like, yeah, don’t expect TR to just come in with a wand and like make everything better. Like you’ve gotta put in the work. And they’re like, yeah, we’re just not ready yet. Like, okay, well then I’m not ready either. Yeah. And you know,

Rachel Jacobs: you have to respect that. You have to respect when people say they’re not fully ready, because Totally.

If that’s the case. And I think that’s the difference between just wanting to close business. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just wanna get this deal over the line versus being like, are we aligned? Yeah. Is this the right timing? So it might be the right. Plan or I might be the right resource, but the timing is not right.

And again, like the, like with the guy Omar, and I said exactly that. I was like, well, I’ve known him since like 2019 I think. And he came to like the one, the first event I ever did in Amsterdam. Super nice guy. He got on super well. Yeah. But he, the timing just was not there. He wasn’t a stage. Um, that he was ready.

And the work that I do is more high level. I mean, initially I was really hands on with operations and now Tiara is doing mm-hmm. A lot more of that stuff and a hell of a lot better because she’s in the financial operations more than I was ever interested in, um, on my [00:37:00] side because I’m working with the business owners.

Mm-hmm. It’s 90% mindset. I’m like, I can, I can fix all the shit, like, all the shit that you have here. Believe me, I have consulted with thousands of agencies. I’ve worked as a fractional COO or non-executive director for hundreds. I believe me, when I say I’ve seen it all, I’ve seen the best of the best and the absolute.

I’ve seen some horror stories. Yeah, like really the worst of the worst criminal stuff I’ve seen. Awful stuff. I’ve seen it all. So no matter what it is, I’m fairly confident in being able to tackle it. What I can’t do is I cannot change mindsets. Yeah. Well, I’m not a head doctor. So if you don’t do that work, if you’re not willing to face the personal issues that you have that’s blocking you in whatever way, so whether that’s imposter syndrome or like whatever it is that you’re dealing with, self-limiting beliefs, whatever.

Yeah. If you’re not willing to face that and we can work [00:38:00] through it together, it’s not gonna work. Mm-hmm. And then I’m gonna end up then like bashing You feel like I’m bashing you? Yeah. Or you feel like I’m, um. I, I’m gonna have to pussy fit around things and anybody who knows me knows I, there’s no puss fitting.

Yeah. Rachel’s not gonna be the life coach part. I’m not pussy fitter, not not

Brenden Rawson: of my size. Yeah. Is is, I mean, similar to how we view recruitment as well. Um, it’s fast moving industry. Um, sure. Experience and education. Um, matter, but for us, mindset, ambition, yes. Work ethic. Mm-hmm. Those are the things that are really hard to train.

That’s, that’s who you are. You can’t teach that, right? No. You can’t teach that, but we can teach you everything else,

Rachel Jacobs: right? Yeah,

Brenden Rawson: yeah,

yeah,

Jason Anderson: yeah. We talk about to both, um, like. Candidates, but also to merchants. Like, you know, we predominantly do email and SMS marketing. Mm-hmm. We do some loyalty stuff, but like, none of this stuff is brain surgery.

Right. Yeah. We’re not saving children’s lives. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. And, um, I’ve [00:39:00] been asked before, like, what do I think the most, the most important like skill or talent, that talent that we hire has? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think on the. The mindset, the ambition side. Mm-hmm. Um, the willingness to work hard and learn, and then empathy.

Because if you are, if you have a really good sense of empathy, you’ll be a great marketer because you can put yourself in other people’s shoes, but you’ll also be a good teammate and you’ll know what it means to deliver your work well for the sake of the person that’s next in line, where you’re a graphic designer and you’ve gotta hand it off to production, or you’re an account manager and you’re writing a brief and you wanna set that designer up for success.

Mm-hmm. If you’ve got those two things. Then you’re gonna do well.

Tiara Tragas: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They have to give a shit. Yeah. Yeah. You can’t teach someone to give a shit and we can teach everything else, you know? Yeah. We,

Brenden Rawson: we have this other thing at Andzen, um, the Japanese concept of kaizen continuous improvement. Mm-hmm. And it sort of threads into our company.

It’s quite a good branding thing as well. Yeah. Um, but like. [00:40:00] I have to con, um, continuously improve. Mm-hmm. Jason has to continuously improve. The company has to con continuously improve. So when we talk about okay, chatting to some new consultants or putting in a new process, or, um, you know, revisiting the work, we try to make it not personal.

This is not about you. This is not about company. This is just us acknowledging. Perfection doesn’t ever exist where we need to every day just get a tiny little bit better. Whatever mistakes we make, they’re learning opportunities. Um, and then I think, well, certainly what we try is it just keeps, uh, an open mind Yeah.

For everybody. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tiara Tragas: You’re always growing. I had a, I had a mentor. Um, he was scary at the time, but now I look back and, and I know he was a mentor of mine. I worked in hospitality. I have a lot of PTSD from that. But, you know, I’d be, you know, I was young in my career and I was a. Young restaurant manager working, and all the servers were like 40 years old, like career servers, you know?

And here I am, like, I can’t even drink, but I’m getting my sommelier [00:41:00] certification, trying to teach them about wine. And um, I’d be panicked, you know? And, and he would come and just like, he would always scare the shit out of us, like creep up on us. But he’d be like, if you’re uncomfortable, it means you’re growing.

And I’d be like.

Fuck off. You know? I’d be so mad in the moment. Yeah, yeah. And it took

Tiara Tragas: me so long and to get out of that environment to be like, yeah, I always wanna be a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I always wanna grow, you know? And so if you can, yeah. You wanna be

Rachel Jacobs: challenged. Yeah. If you

Tiara Tragas: can cultivate that culture.

If you had a process and it was perfect and you never needed to touch it again, that means you’re not growing.

Yeah. You know,

Tiara Tragas: you need things to be flexible and rigid. I mean, not rigid. Um, so as much as I’m like, yeah, we’re gonna build these processes, we’re gonna build all these forecasts and stuff, well, they’re meant to be broken and to redo again, and that’s, it goes back to like always needing someone in charge.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah. We’ve got a, a staffer actually coming back next month, um, who left, uh, a year, a year and a half ago, and the discussion was. He’s, he’s just not challenged at his new job. Yeah. Um, and he [00:42:00] doesn’t feel like he’s growing personally or professionally, um, and wants to come back, which is really nice. That’s nice.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Jacobs: No, that’s, that’s a testament to you guys because really it’s creating, as a business, it’s creating that environment where it encourages and it empowers people to have that, uh, curious mindset. Um, because at the end of the day, if you just stay stagnant in the job, like the whole agency’s just, or the whole business is just gonna become.

Brenden Rawson: An agency in itself is like pretty chaotic. Yeah. Just, yeah, it is. To, to make the numbers work, you have to juggle a lot of clients. You have to run at a fast pace and I think you need to be, um, like an agency person and, and we see that you, I think, uh, you can be really talented, but if you’re not used to like context switching, dealing with fire fires at once, yeah.

You probably end up brand side. Mm-hmm. Um, but if you just like love that fast paced. Chaotic, um, multi-brand, uh, you’re an agency person.

Rachel Jacobs: Yeah. I would say, this is what I always say to agency owners, when you run [00:43:00] an agency, it will find your weaknesses and expose them and really amplify them after agency life.

Whatever you do next you’re ready for. Yeah, because it will break you. Like I would, people are like, oh, if you know. All about running agencies. Like why would you not run your own agency? I do not need that kind of shit in my life. I’m already, I run four companies. I don’t need that much chaos in my life.

Um, because ultimately it’s like the people, like the, the actual nuts and bolts of running an agency is kind of easy. It’s not that complicated. Yeah. But it’s all of the people, the moving pieces between the employees and the brands and like, uh, the clients, like all of that stuff. It is hard work and it takes a certain type.

Of person to be able to deal with that and it not break them. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, like you said, you either go brand side or tech side. Yeah. Which is fine. Yeah, of course. Totally. But they’re just way more predictable. Yeah. Agency life is anything but predictable. Yeah. And that’s why I have a job.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah.

Like I, you know, [00:44:00] personally, I sort of thrive on that

Tiara Tragas: same, I, I thrive on, okay, let’s get a call ask, see what kind of issues you guys are having and yeah, I love it. Let me go solve them. And then, you know. Copying and paste for, for everyone else, you know, in their own unique ways. But I always, you know, tell my agencies that when we are hiring, um, if you’re a growing agency, it, it’s kind of, you know, sad for anyone who’s, who’s listening that doesn’t fall into this category.

But they must have had experience in an agency prior. Yeah. Yeah. We cannot. I, especially a smaller agency or even a bigger one, we don’t have the time to teach them agency life. Yeah. They need to already know what that demon is and be able to handle it. Yeah. We can, you know, they get to know our clients and things like that.

You need to be stress tested

already. Yes,

Tiara Tragas: exactly. Like we can’t break you in ’cause then you’re gonna hate us. Yeah, exactly. We’re not responsible. That just comes with the gig, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

Rachel Jacobs: have to come with the scars in your back. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Depending on what stage the agency is at. [00:45:00] Yes, of course.

When the agency is getting started, I think bringing people in, um, like Adrian, bringing people in and grooming them from the grind up and they’re fairly green and you kind of mold ’em the way you want them When you hit a certain level as a business, you need to then start bringing in people externally who come with.

Their experience and traumas and baggage and scars and all of that stuff that it’s like, okay, well I have all these scars in my back because I know all this stuff, what not to do.

Brenden Rawson: Yeah. We, we send each other this, um, Futurama meme, um, and everything’s on fire. There’s chaos happening. Yeah. And then fry like.

Um, drinks his coffee and then everything stops and he’s just wandering around fixing the spill, putting that fire. Exactly. And then when it comes back to like real speed, everything’s fine. Yeah. Yeah. That’s for a How we’re firefighter For a moment? Yeah. For a moment. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think we could do this all day.

Um, but. We are out of time. Uh, r Tiara, thank you so much for being honored. Have, because

Rachel Jacobs: as we’re known on the streets of [00:46:00] Vegas, the agency Slay Yes. The agency. Yeah. That’s what they call us, the main streets. We just made it up earlier, but we’re just gonna keep going with it and we’re gonna see if, if you keep telling

Jason Anderson: people that’s what they’re calling you, then people will call, maybe they’ll stick Vegas.

Tiara Tragas: Yeah, watch out. Thanks for having us.

Brenden Rawson: Uh, have a fantastic day. Thank you. See you all very soon. Yes, thanks. Cheers. Bye-bye.

Tiara Tragas: Bye bye.

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